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By Sean Barbera • September 25, 2019

[Webinar] Are You Financing Your Inventory the Hard Way?

Common Pitfalls and 3 Paths to easier financing.

 

Watch our helpful webinar presented by Troy Skabelund, partner at Preferred CFO and avoid the common pitfalls small and midsized businesses make in their financing. Held September 25, 2019.

Inventory Financing - Executive Webinar 25 Sep 2019

Troy Skabelund, Partner, Preferred CFO

 

[TRANSCRIPTION]

Sean:                     Good morning everyone. Thank you for taking the time today to join our webinar. My name is Shawn Barbera. I am the marketing director here at navigator business solutions. We provide technology and cloud based ERP solutions that help leaders better position their companies for future growth. Today's inventory financing executive webinar will be presented by Troy Skateland, a partner at preferred CFO. Preferred CFO provides tailored outsourced CFO systems controller and strategic advisory solutions for organizations of all sizes.

Sean:                     Troy has over 20 years experience as a CFO and systems expert within organizations ranging in size from venture back startups to fortune 100 companies including 12 years at the Walt Disney company.       If you have questions during the presentation, please submit them through the GoToWebinar control panel and we'll have a Q&A session at the end of the presentation. With that, I will pass control over to Troy and we will start the presentation. 

Troy:                      It's great to be with you guys. Thanks for the introduction. I appreciate it, Sean. I am excited for the time we can spend together. And I apologize for the delay getting underway. The agenda is laid out here and I'll cover briefly what we're going to cover. We're going to walk through some common pitfalls as described in the seminar description and then we're going to talk through some, some key ways to financing inventory the easy way. And then at the end we'll have time for some Q. And. A.

Troy:                      So I want to start with a story. There was an afternoon some years ago at Niagara falls. There was a large crowd of people that were there enjoying the view and they noticed a man had fallen into the river and was drifting towards the falls and was calling out to those on the shore. He was calling out which way to shore, which way to shore. Well, initially the people weren't that alarmed because they could see that this, this fellow could swim and he was not having any trouble swimming. And so they thought it was a publicity stunt and they didn't really do anything until he got close to the falls and they realized that his life was at risk and then they, they jumped into action and tried to save him, but they were too late in their response and he went over the edge of the falls to his death.

Troy:                      Well, it wasn't until after the body was recovered and identified that they realized why he had been calling which way to shore. The fact was that he was a capable swimmer, but he was blind. In my experience working with business owners, I found that business owners also know how to swim, but in many cases they just don't know which direction to swim.               And inventory financing is one of those topics that that falls into that category for some, some of you, I'm hoping today that we can, we can tell you which, which way to shore and give you some ideas as to how you can get there. So let's talk first about five common blind spots that are, I see too frequently in this sector. The first is what I would call inherent business model conflicts. We'll talk also about, um, each of these in detail.

Troy:                      So I'm not going to walk through each of them here. So the first blind spot I'm going to cover is the premature use of equity. Um, equity is by far the most expensive capital that a company can access, but for some reason a lot of business owners go to equity first. They go to the equity too early in the process. And in the, in the process of acquiring capital through equity, they lose partial or even full control of their business. Equity should be used as a last resort. It's the most expensive type of capital. And even when it is unavoidable, I recommend the use of convertible debt, which allows you to, um, treat it as debt until you do a large equity raise and it allows them to participate in the transaction. As an equity shareholder, one of the benefits of the convertible debt approach is it avoids valuation issues.

Troy:                      There's no need to value the, the instrument until the point where you do a large capital round. And so it allows you to, um, to raise the capital without having to arm wrestle with the lender over over your valuation. A second blind spot is what I call world's full debt. And this is a trap that far too many business owners fall into. Um, there are a lot of hotel California lenders out there. They're programmed to receive. You can check in anytime you want, but you can never leave. You may get a lot of these inquiries in your email from MCA lenders, Virgin cash advance lenders there, they'll give you money and they'll do it quick. But at the interest rates sometimes be as high as 300%. They tend to break down their terms in confusing ways so that people often think they're getting a better interest rate than they really are.

Troy:                      And they can often lead to a lot of problems with other lenders who view the use of MCs as a desperate act and will sometimes decline to lend to a company that's loaded up with MCA lenders. The other category that falls into this Whirlpool debt sector are some mezzanine lenders. Not all mezzanine lenders are dangerous, but there are definitely some who will initially give you a no interest loan with a deferred payment schedule and some warrants and if you, if you take on more debt than you can handle at those higher rates when it kicks in later you can lose your business. I've seen a number of business owners compromise in this way and in many cases they felt they had no other choice, but I can tell you that there are other options and you should only consider mezzanine when the circumstances, um, really ensure that you can handle the debt service on that type of an arrangement.

Troy:                      The fourth blind spot that I see frequently in the marketplace is what I, that's all fun and sing. A lot of times these are from individuals who are lenders that have one particular VA, that vehicle that they're either most confident in and competent in or that 10 advised for their institution and they try to tell everyone that that one debt vehicle is the right answer for every business. They often have canned terms around collateral. A lot of personal guarantees that the duration is usually fixed and may not fit with your business or industry. Um, they'll sometimes offer you more than you need in order to qualify. And the, uh, some of the hidden item, the scenes, the requirement to be in first position as a senior lender, um, warrants and some other things can often be a really poor fit for certain business types. So you need to watch out for anyone who's a one trick pony and it's promising you that they've got one loan instrument or credit instrument that can solve everyone's needs.

Troy:                      The fifth, blind spot is over-reliance on personal credit. Uh, there are a lot of lenders that immediately will press for a personal guarantee and many business owners, um, automatically assume that any credit they're going to get for their business has to be off of their personal credit. That's not the case and we'll talk about that later in the presentation. But pursuing a personal credit heavy approach, for one, it's not sustainable. Most owners won't have enough of a credit history to achieve the type of growth capital that may be needed at later stages is a plus. It increases risk to the owner. It also can cause one problem, one hiccup in the business to put things at risk. So you know, an example of that is for those of you who may be involved in family owned businesses or smaller businesses that are entering the mid no market space, if you talk to owners, anyone who's gone through a divorce or who's had a major health crisis knows that your personal credit can be easily affected and your ability to cover debt service can be compromised.

Troy:                      So you need to be really careful about over reliance on personal credit. Um, we talked briefly about the business model conflicts a second ago. Let me explain what this really means. This is one of the most common challenges I see with business owners and it's the least addressed. Uh, business wall conflict is a situation where your customers and sources of inbound cash pay you slower than you pay your vendors, your employees, and other uses of outbound cash. This is incredibly common, but it's not self correcting in most most cases. So if you don't address these fundamental issues as your business grows, instead of solving the problem, you'll just grow a bigger Frankenstein monster. This is one of the most common reasons why companies go into bankruptcy is unaddressed business model issues. And there are ways to address it. We'll talk about that in a minute. But if you find that the harder you chase improving your cash flow and the harder you chase sales, the, the wider the gap becomes.

Troy:                      Chances are you've got a business model conflict that then unaddressed. So years ago I grew up in flaming Gorge national recreation area. It's just South of Yellowstone national park. And my father was a forest ranger. So we spend a lot of time in the outdoors. We lived right near a, one of the best fly fishing streams in the nation. It's a green river just below the flaming Gorge dam. And this photo is a picture of a piece of the, the, the, uh, the river down below. Then we rafted all the time. Uh, one, one, uh, weekend my friends and I went on a, uh, packing trip. We went backpacking along the river and we were just going to do an overnight trip and in and out. And yeah, the views were beautiful. But my friend, um, in this case, we'll, we'll, we'll call him. Bill. Bill was really struggling with his pack and being teenagers.

Troy:                      We told him he needed to spend more time in the gym. Well, it turned out that bill was carrying the gym with him. Unbeknownst to him, his older brothers had loaded an entire set of free weights into his backpack right before he left on the trip. So he didn't discover that until we got to the campsite and he started to unload. And lo and behold, he was carrying more than his body weight and free weights all the way down the trail. Now, I found that business owners are often carrying unnecessary burdens in the same way that bill was. And there's, there's a need to offload them and some of those unnecessary burdens have to do with some of the keys. We're gonna talk about here to um, improve it when your finances, we're going to talk about a way to go straight to the top some options and creative methods you can use to finance your inventory the easier way. Feel flip to the next slide.

Troy:                      We'll start first with what I call finding cash in the couch cushions. I think any port, anyone who's been a poor college student knows what, what value you can sometimes be found in the couch. As a business owner, there are some less frequently, um, recognized ways to do, um, to act as countering the hashing the couch cushions. The first one is by looking at the frequency with which you bill. If you're a B to B business, you should not be billing just once a month. This is a tendency that a lot of companies fall into, especially at an earlier stage and it, it caused it, you collect from your customers less often than you would otherwise. It's the equivalent of giving your customers a free loan for a few weeks every month.

Troy:                     If your contract say that you can't build more often than you should bill as often as you can. A lot of companies bill in a batch process and they do it once a month for the convenience of their accountant. But the reality is you should try to invoice us quick to the delivery of services or of the product as poss and, and if you can do that, you'll boost the amount of time you wait to be paid without [inaudible] getting the payment. Term customers payment lag is often a result of delays in billing because the customer, they're AR aging doesn't start until the invoice arrives. A second area that you can use to find change, you know, loose change of the couch cushions is by the strategic use of uh, payment incentives, early payment incentives, um, sometimes that a percentage, so reduce for the invoice based off of the, uh, early payment timing.

Troy:                      The, uh, billing frequency is, you know, is an important way to, to improve cash flow timing. Um, early payment discounts are another very effective one. Um, typically the early payment discounts of under 4% are advantageous for you. Um, in some cases, you know, ideally you want to try to shoot for one or 2%, but there may be times when you really need access to cash where you might consider doing some, um, some short term, um, incentives via the third element here is on payment timing rather than cash receipt timing. If you have a small shop and your accounts payable team is making payments in batches, make sure that they're not paying any of your vendors early. This happens at times where, they are either pressed or lazy accounts payable clerk will throw in some things early 

Troy:                      because they don't want to have to process some later and that's a really bad way to leak out precious cash. Um, challenging sales reserves is one of the more important ones, especially for people who are doing e-commerce with a credit card payment processors or any B2B businesses that are working with large retailers like Walmart. Those organizations tend to hold back a portion of your sales proceeds and they hold it as a reserve against returns. The problem is in a lot of cases they reserve really aggressively and they hold too much cash and it starves your business from some of the sales results that you've, you've got good rights too, so you should make sure that your team is monitoring sales reserves really aggressively and that they're challenging overly aggressive sales reserves with documentation to prove that you have rights to the cash credit cards. The main point is be smart about the credit card programs you're running. Take good advantage of cash back and also a rewards like travel points can, if you can book your travel and hotels, things like that on your credit card points. That's, you know, an alternative to using your precious cash. And then on the credit card controls usage, make sure that you don't have more people with access to credit card programs and really need it and more importantly, monitor closely what people are putting on their credit card.

Troy:                      Because I often see companies where employees start putting things on a credit card that they have better payment terms through an a, an alternative vendor. I've even seen some cases where they put it on a credit card with the exact same vendor that may be giving them like 45 day terms and then they end up having to pay it in 30 days on the credit card. So paying attention to those types of things that'll free up cash in the accounts or Christians that you can use to purchase inventory. Here's of the more important keys to success with financial financing. Inventory building business credit. I don't care if your business is a startup or if it's in the mid market. Every business can benefit by strengthening its credit and opening up better credit options. As a result, when you're starting your business or if you're an early stage company, a lot of people are using their own personal credit and especially a lot of founders use their own personal credit card and they think that they can't qualify for a, um, a business credit card.

Troy:                      You need to treat your business like a college student, a new college student. I just sent my youngest child to college a few weeks ago. We definitely made sure that she had a credit card. We made sure that she knew how to use it properly and when to use it, but we also knew that even though the credit limit for her credit card was going to be tiny, she needed to start building her credit while she was in school so that when she gets out of school she has the ability to get a mortgage or you know, finance other things. So you start with the credit card. Amex is a great partner on this, you know, not that I'm getting paid to say that, but Amex is not a traditional bank. They'll give just about any business of a credit card. The limit may be smaller for yours, but getting the account established is the first step.

Troy:                      Once you've got a credit card account established with a good lender and what you want to do is make sure you run all of your essential spending. That can be run through a credit card without having to pay a fee through the credit card. Um, don't put things on it that are frivolous or things that are not core essential. Put the things that you know you're going to have to pay anyway and that you know, you have the means to pay anyway. All those times that software subscriptions, um, utilities, there are a number of things that you can run through through a credit card program. The goal here is to run a meaningful volume through the credit card, pay it locked like clockwork, and then understand the criteria to have that credit limit increased. In most cases, you can get a credit limit increase within three to six months, and if you max out the line every month, you can almost always get a sizable increase after that timeframe.

Troy:                      Um, in some cases, if you, if you want to increase the line even further, you can even pay the credit card balance off mid month and then put more essential spending on it and pay it off again at the end of the cycle. If the credit card company can see that you're paying on time and that you're maxing out the credit limit to them that's lost business and they want to give you more credit. The key here is that credit cards and a well-managed credit card account is a key to unlocking lines of credit with the same lenders. And it also establishes a clear history that your business is credit worthy, not just you as an individual and it will allow you to now shift the burden of your debt onto the business, which is going to lead to a long term benefit that frees you up personally but opens up greater options and better interest rates over time.

Troy:                      Um, this tendency to, to pay off a credit card account mid month is one of the rare exceptions where I advise a client to pay early and it's only when you have a really clear understanding of the criteria that will increase your credit limit. The third area that's the most essential and critical beyond, um, the points we've already covered. It is matching up your financing strategy to your business model. There are. Um, there are a few areas I'll cover here. The one that I find is the least understood and is the most beneficial is what I call cooperative financing. Some of you are probably no doubt talking to your factories that are manufacturing and supplying your inventory today and you probably have varying success in getting financing terms from your factory partners. If you haven't asked, that's the first thing you should, you should pursue is getting the factory to give you 30 days, 60 days.

Troy:                      You know, whatever you can get from them before you have to pay for your product. When you start on the treadmill, you may be having to pay in full before they'll even ship and the goal is to get to where you're not having to pay in full or where if you're able to pay later than I'm in the process. If you're not able to get factory financing or if the rates that they offer are exorbitant. This, there are some secondary options. One is to work with freight partners. There's some great programs out there where a freight partner, like ups capitalism is an example of one of these where they'll, um, they'll basically buy the inventory from the factory for you. They will ship it to the U S and then they will clear customs with it and then you, you pay them back 90 days after it left the factory.

Troy:                      And so essentially they're financing it as if it was their inventory for that, that three month period. And if, if you're confident in your ability to clear that inventory in say 45 to six, you know, I, I'd say probably 30 to 45 days, then you can use a program like that with a lot of confidence and um, get access to capital that otherwise you may not be able to find if you don't qualify with the freight partners. A third creative option is to work with a fulfillment partner who has a strong credit history with one of the freight operators or with the factory and to work out of an indirect financing option where the fulfillment partner secures the line of credit or the credit terms with the other party. And usually those do require you to use their fulfillment service. But if you're a business that's struggling to get access to the necessary growth capital, that may not be a bad option for you to consider.

Troy:                      Um, so those three cooperative financing areas are areas. If you've not looked at them, I would really seek, suggest you do. If you have, I would suggest that you revisit them to see if there may be some more creative options available to you. Um, there are a few that some of you are probably aware of. Factoring with vendors is one that is less understood. Normally people factor with their customers based on cash receipts that they expect to receive. But one of the companies that I worked with a couple of years ago, they were spending close to $32 million in freelance contract labor. And so we actually worked out a factoring arrangement for the, the payroll processor that was paying the freelance labor. It wasn't actually debt on our company's books at all. We worked with the, the other party though to allow them to factor off of our payments to them and it allowed them to grant us longer payment terms on a processing, all that freelance labor that labor normally required us to pay every week.

Troy:                      Through that arrangement, we were able to extend it and get more longer terms and it allowed us to focus that capital on inventory and other things that would actually increase profitability and revenue. A momentum POV is financing is, is a very common option. If you've got POS from a, uh, credible a customer or if you have a confirmed contracts revenue generating contracts with a customer, I think more people are aware of that. If, if you're not and you have POS or contracts with, uh, a larger customer, you can get ahold of me afterwards. I can get you a lot more details on that. The final one is just to look at some alternative lenders. These are options that people often are unaware of. Um, I call them alternative lenders because they are not traditional financial institutions, credit unions, although everyone knows about a credit union, um, because they're not, um, public entities and because they're owned by shareholders and they're not a for profit business, they often will lend in cases where banks won't.

Troy:                      And in some cases they have programs that are designed to foster local businesses. And so you should take a look at that if you haven't, even if you're a larger company in the mid market, you can sometimes out some really favorable deals with credit unions, family offices, a of high net worth individuals that, um, have a lot of money that needed to put the work. Many of them will do debt programs and their debt programs again, can be, um, far more flexible than a lot of the traditional invest lenders are. Um, the trick with family offices is they tend to focus on sectors that they understand. And so you need to find the right family offices for your sector in order for that to be an option. But there are a lot of people out there who focus in a variety of different industries. And again, that's an area I could point you towards if that's something that you'd like to explore.

Troy:                      And then finally, industry specific lenders. Um, the fact is that lenders lend based on risk and they perceive an industry to be lower risk if it's an industry that they understand or if they have, um, other advantages in. And so if you have not taken a look at industry specific lenders, I would encourage you to do so. There are a lot of industry specific lenders in certain sectors like real estate, um, hospitality, healthcare. Um, there, there are others that focus on manufacturing and there are others that focus on rural areas. If you're in an area that's less populated or if you're in an area that's designated as an economic development zone, there are a lot of programs in those areas. Economic development zones can be surprising. It's based on census data. If you, if your business is located near a college campus, college students are poor as a result.

Troy:                      Areas near college campuses are usually qualifying economic development zones. And there may be incentivized lending options that you were previously unaware of. Um, the other thing about the rural programs and the economic development zone programs is even if you're not in a qualifying location right now, you can often qualify by either opening a location or relocating and in some cases I had one client that was only two blocks from a qualifying zone. Even by just opening a sales office in the qualifying zone of a couple of blocks away from their primary building, they were able to qualify for some advantaged low interest rate financing. So there, there are a lot of options here to sum up in closing, make sure that you're looking for opportunities to conserve cash and find cash in your day to day business operations. Make sure that you're exploring partnerships with people in sectors that are maybe a little off the beaten path and finally build that business credit because business credit is what's going to unlock doors for you in the future. That'll give you much more favorable terms.

Troy:                      I appreciate your time. I'll now turn it over with whatever time we do have left to Q. And. A.

Sean:                     Thank you. Troy. We do have a few more minutes. If I have a couple of questions, if you do have additional questions, please just type them into the Q and A tab on the GoToWebinar control panel. Oh, Troy, one one question that came in is:      Which is more important when seeking financing revenue or EBITDA.

Troy:                      This is a good question that that comes up all the time. A lot of it hinges on who you're approaching, what type of lender. Um, you'll find that, um, more traditional term loan lenders and people who are establishing lines of credit often focus more on EBITDA than they do on revenue. Whereas some of the, uh, alternative lenders that we've talked about today, especially in the cooperative space, care much more about revenue and, and flow through. So if you're, if you've got a great revenue profile but a poor profitability profile, I would suggest that you explore aggressively some of the cooperative lending options that we've discussed with factories, with freight partners and with, um, with some of the fulfillment partners.

Sean:                     So, and another a follow on question being,      where's the line?    Is there a line between smaller businesses and midsize businesses on what approaches to their inventory financing that they should start with?

Troy:                      There are a few things to keep in mind. If you're a small business, there are programs out there that can almost guarantee, um, $150,000 worth of capital if your legal entity is more than two years old. Um, that's not necessarily the case for, for mid market companies, but for if you're a smaller business, if you're legal entities two years or older, you can almost guarantee that you could, you could access up to $150,000. Um, there's also the option if you're under two years, and this may sound odd, but it's perfectly legal and above board, you can acquire an existing legal entity. Usually for a few hundred dollars, which does qualify for that type of financing. So there are some cases they're less understood and less frequently known, but there are some cases where being a smaller business is actually advantageous when you're at a mid market.

Troy:                      Part of the reason why it's different is that you tend to be seeking larger amounts. So the risk to a lender is, you know, it's a larger risk if something goes South. The other thing is that you usually have much more credit history and so they have more to evaluate you based on, for those of you, it's a different conversation depending on which sector you're in. But I'd be happy to take some offline conversations on that topic, whether you're mid-market or your small business. If you're a small business, I would, um, really take an aggressive look at outfits like American express because you can get a lot, not only a large credit card line, but you can get working capital loans and a lot of other things from them and they're, they're hyper aggressive in the marketplace.

Sean:                     Now, another question, I know we have a couple of, uh, different industries, attending today. Are there big differences between industries, say a medic medical device manufacturer or distributor and a paper manufacturer and distributor?

Troy:                      Yes, I've worked with both actually. Along with a lot of other industries. One, one key difference is how lender views your collateral and you know, whether they'll consider things your assets. Collateral will differ tremendously by industry. Medical devices are actually really valuable collateral heavy equipment, you know, things that there are certain things that are easier for a, a lender to liquidate in the case of a, you know, of trouble. One of the challenges for a paper process or in for others is that most of what you're dealing with is raw materials and you do have some large equipment, but, the margins in your business are very low. And so margins are another industry variant that in a really high margin industry, the, the lender knows that you're likely to have some margin available to service debt if you're in a super low margin industry and or one that is dependent on raw materials.

Troy:                      If those commodities like leap up in cost, your margin isn't going to leave you much room for error to be able to, to cover that. Now, some of these companies have explored trade setting up their own financing company, which is another option that we don't have time to go through all the details of it on the call today. But setting up your own financing company can be an option that actually, can solve a lot of problems for, for companies and gives, in equity investors and opportunity to put equity in, but they put it into a separate legal entity that's a financing company instead of putting in into your main operating entity. That a few years back, Warren Buffet purchased a furniture store chain in Utah that I've talked to and one of the reasons why he purchased it was because he could make high interest loans on furniture purchases to consumers. And so he was really interested in it as a financing play rather than as a core product play. And there are other investors, family offices and others that sometimes will be open to setting up a financing company that otherwise might not be interested in lending to you because they can, you know, so there's some options there.

Sean:                     Okay. And then, If your business only sells from inventory that they have in stock, is there a right ratio of revenue to inventory value or GP to inventory value that a business should be looking at?

Troy:                      Well that's a complex question to answer in part because it hinges on your sales momentum and your average purchase price. Those are factors that do weigh in the decision. But I can tell you that there are ratios, they're going to differ somewhat by the makeup of your product offering is also going to differ depending on your sales mix. So if you're only selling one product, that's going to be a different answer than if you're selling a whole category of products or you know, diverse array of products. I can tell you that he healthiest businesses in terms of sales growth that are usually the least healthy in terms of short term cash flow. So those ratios are hard to stick to if you're in a high growth environment. I had a Utah, coffee company I was dealing with that sells online. They grew from a million and a half in revenue to 35 million in 18 months and I can assure you they were not able to stick to benchmark ratios during that process. So, it's not a hard and fast rule. Basically

Sean:                     I know where we're coming up on, on the top of the hour and I want to thank everyone, uh, for the GoToWebinar audio challenge we had. There was one last quick question was when and if crowdsourcing is a viable option for financing.

Troy:                      Okay. That's an an interesting one. It's one that I have experienced with crowdsourcing is typically only a viable option if you have a product that has a particularly, um, high, um, affinity with a PR well-defined sector of the, their customer base. One of the reasons why you have to be careful with crowd sourcing is in almost every successful crowdsourcing campaign, there are obligations you take on as the, uh, the borrower that you have to fulfill at a later stage. And even though you can structure those to where they're not terribly costly, that's a competency that most companies are not that great at. Um, I worked with very closely with a film studio that did, they set a record on Kickstarter for, um, for raising capital through crowd sourcing. So they were tremendously successful with the raise. The problem was they had to keep track at different stages of their project and their products life cycle of a number of, uh, fulfillment obligations that ended up becoming a real burden for them. Um, but if you're in an area that has a really avid, um, you know, kind of almost rabid customer base and you know that those folks have, uh, uh, a really high income, it can be a very viable option for, uh, for companies that fit that category.

Sean:                     Excellent. And then we do have a couple that we'll take offline time, but a couple of our attendees are very interested in how to, what direction to look at to seek setting up that  alternative financing entity. So I guess we'll take that one offline and get a great answer for you and send it out to all the attendees. I'm assuming there's not a real quick answer to that one and it's very specific to the industry that they're in.

Troy:                      Yeah. But it is something that, there are a number of experts I work with on that, that I can connect people with. And a, those folks have, you know, done anything from small businesses all the way to public utilities. So they're, they've got a wide range of company size and industry that they've dealt with. So I'd be happy to fill those offline.

Sean:                     Great. We will get, we'll get that answer and get it out to all of you. Again, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for taking this time on, on your Wednesday. We do appreciate your time. I know it's valuable. Please, if you do have follow up questions, please feel free to email me, uh, Sean dot barbera@nbs-usdotcomorthembstoatnbs-us.com. Uh, and I will get those answered, those questions, work with Troy and get those answers out to all of you. Again, thank you and have a prosperous week.

Troy:                      Thank you all.

 

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